A CHRISTIAN WAS SHOT DEAD IN YOBE AS HE TALKED TO ME ON PHONE-ORITSEJAFOR

A Christian Was Shot Dead in Yobe as He Talked to me on Phone-Oritsejafor

Pastor Ayodele Joseph Oritsejafor is the Senior Pastor of Word of Life Bible Church, headquartered in Warri and the President of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN). In this interview with Tokunbo Adedoja, he speaks on the challenges of presiding over the affairs of the Christian community in Nigeria and also bares his mind on the issue of insecurity plaguing the nation, the plight of victims of terror attacks, and proffers solution on how to effectively address the security challenges confronting the nation, among other issues

How would you describe your experience as CAN President?

I have always believed in my life that a position of authority goes with responsibility. So, I see my becoming the President of Christian Association of Nigeria as a call to service and a position of extraordinary responsibility to stand in the gap for the church and for believers today. So, it is an awesome responsibility. You look at it. It is huge.

What would you describe as your most challenging moment as CAN President?

My most challenging moment and in a sense still challenges me is that I came at a time when Christians were being slaughtered like goats across many of the northern states. I came into this position at a very trying time for Nigeria, but specifically for the church, for Christians. I wake up some mornings and I turn on my television and the next thing I see is that a church has been burnt or somebody calls me at 2am to tell me that gunmen had gone into a church and killed 25 people. I remember vividly a night when somebody called me from Yobe, Damaturu, and was screaming. Around 1 or 2 am, and was screaming, ‘help me, please help me’. I don’t know how he got my number. Then I told him to calm down and asked him question: ‘What is going on?’ And he said, ‘they are coming, they are coming for me’. You know in that situation, you could here gunshots all over the place. I could here the gunshots and eventually he was shot. He was    killed while he was talking to me. 

You can imagine the trauma and the pain. I didn’t sleep again that day. I can’t go to Damaturu. I don’t even know my way there. Who do I call? It was 2 O’clock in the morning. He was dead and that was why I didn’t hear his voice again. I only heard the sound of a gun and that was it. He was gone. So I came into this position at a time when there is such a strong challenge facing the church that whether I like it or not I would have to face. Well, God knows why he made me CAN president at a time like this. It is my greatest challenge. It is the challenge of the hour. It is an ongoing challenge, like I said, because this problem are still going on. Boko Haram to a large extent has been subdued but not completely eliminated.They are still there. They are still killing, maiming, creating more orphans, widows all over the place. So, it is very challenging, but God is greater than any challenge. And that is my confidence, that is my consolation, and joy. That God who put me there at this time would not leave me but will continue to give me grace and strength to face the challenge.

You said Boko Haram has been substantially subdued but not completely eliminated.Many would share that view too. But we are also worried that when government was claiming victory in its war against the sect, in the past few days, we had unprecedented killings by gunmen suspected to be members of the sect in Yobe. What do you think is really the solution to this terrorist activities?

First of all, terrorism is something that, in my opinion, you may not be able to, 100 per cent, eliminate completely. But to a large extent, you can bring to the barest minimum, to a point where a nation can ... for example America today is going on as a nation but you cannot rule out terrorist attacks. Once in a while, it happens and they take care of it and after a while you here of another one. That is what I mean. It will always happen. So, I think it is important for me to say that, because that is the world in which we live today. We live in a world where certain persons want to impose their beliefs on other people and it is a terrible thing. So, having said that, let me say that the security agencies have tried, they have done well. They have done a good job.

I applauded Mr. President when he declared the state of emergency in those states and I think it was the right decision because you could see that immediately after that, there was a drastic drop in the activities of Boko Haram. I think it is on record that a lot of their key leaders have also been eliminated. But now why is it that we are seeing another upsurge of the same insurgency again? I think, probably, two or three things are responsible. Number one, I believe that Boko Haram is a confused organisation right now. And a confused man can run in any direction. As a confused organisation, they will still want to make you feel that we are here. We are not gone. You have not eliminated us, we are still around. We are still relevant, we are still a force to be reckon with. To register their presence, the easiest way is to go after innocent people, kill as many as they can. And naturally, the media will give them front page report and that is exactly what they want.

They are looking for that. You must report it, anyway. So what do you do? But that is exactly what they want. By so doing, they get the attention and all eyes are turned to them again and that makes them relevant. You know. So, that is what, in my own opinion, what is happening right now. They are doing that to make sure that we don’t forget that they are still here, we have not gone yet, remember us, we are still around. That is what is happening now. The second thing is that, although I am not a member of Boko Haram, I don’t know how they function. But they look to me right now like a group without a structured leadership. They go this way, they kill and some are killing over there because they are scattered all over the place. It looks like a group of people who have no direction. Nobody to give them direction about where to go and how to go about whatever they should do. So, they are just... among themselves, they take a decision, at different locations and different places and say, ‘ok, this is what we will do and just go ahead and do it’. And sometimes, groups of people like that can be more dangerous than even the structured ones because at this time, it is like they have nothing to lose. Now, the third thing to me is the real painful thing and I believe that the security agencies must look inwards. One of the reasons I think that this people are getting more a little bit successful in what they do now is because they are getting information from within the military themselves.

They must look within. There are people within the security agencies that are sympathetic to Boko Haram and so when they make their plans, somehow, these plans are leaked to these people. They know the plans they have. They know their locations, they know the strength of security agents and agencies. So, that helps them to make their own plans and go after them. I was reading in one of the dailies a few days ago about one attack that happened somewhere in Borno State. About how, I wasn’t there but that was what I read, how the military had planned an arial attack first before a ground attack. But that suddenly, the arial attack was stopped but those going on foot were not informed and, atleast, from what the papers said, they could not quite identify who stopped the arial attack. It was stopped just at the the last moment. Without informing those going on ground. The arial attack, naturally, was to soften the ground for them.

They have discovered that these people were heavily armed. The arial attack would have gone in there, confuse them, destroy a lot of those equipment and those on ground would just come in and do a mop up operation. But because the arial attack stopped suddenly, those on ground did not know that, they kept advancing. And from what the newspaper said, these people already knew, so they ambushed the soldiers. Where did they get the information? They knew the arial attack had been stopped. They knew that these people were on ground coming. So, they ambushed them and they killed a lot of them. But the military being a trained force was able to kill a lot of them, but the military lost a lot of people. So, my point is this, there are are still people.... I read in the papers sometimes ago that some people were being court-martialed becuse of their romance with Boko Haram. I have been talking about this for over a year now. I have been saying that this thing is going on and some people say, ‘what are you talking about?’ Now, nine people are being court-martialed. Are they the only people involved? No, there are still many more. They are in there. They should look inward. They should do everything possible to fish out such people and do what is needful and let them face the wrath of the law and make sure that such people are not again in sensitive positions.

There are certain persons that must never be allowed to handle certain information. So, what I am saying is that Boko Haram has sympathisers in the security agencies. That is a plus for them and a minus for the military. So, that is part of why, I beleive, you are seeing such highlevel casualties because these people know what they are doing based on information they are getting. So, the security agencies need to nip these things in the bud. They need to find out those amongst them, there are still more. They need to get them out of the system. Finally, the security people themselves need to work together. I am a lay man, from my angle, just looking, sometimes it looks like they are working at cross purposes, and that shouldn’t be the case. And, so they must work together. This is very important and the government should fund them.

How do you view the controversy over Shekau’s death. The Army claimed he died, but a video believed to have been released by him showed otherwise. And just last Sunday, scores of students were killed by gunmen in Yobe State. What his your reaction to all these

First of all, I am not surprised to hear that Shekau is alive. In fact, I was one of the first persons to say the authorities concerned should verify properly when the news came that the leader of Boko Haram had been shot and killed. My scepticism has a familiar ring to it. Before the news of his death, there was this claim by the Committee on Amnesty that Boko Haram agreed to negotiate with government. My reaction then was that they shouldn’t be surprised if the Boko Haram leader appears tomorrow to say he didn’t agree to any negotiation. Two days later, the group came up to say they didn’t discuss negotiation with anybody. With the sect leaders, you can never be sure of anything. Let me also say that yesterday, today and atleast this moment, I will continue to say that the military is doing a fantastic job. I will never take away and I do not expect anyone else to take away the positive impact that the security agencies have made on this issue of insurgency in parts of northern Nigeria. However, I think the military should have been very careful in whatever statement or pronouncement they made about the death of Shekau. I will suspect that as we speak, they must be working round the clock to positively unravel the truth. Now, at this point, assuming, hypothetically that Shekau is still alive; in my own opinion, there is nothing new because whatever he is saying now is what he has always said; that he is out to stop democracy. He has said it again. Let me use this opportunity to commend the civilian JTF, mostly made up of Muslim youths.

But I will continue to call on the Muslim elites to help Nigerians to go to the grassroots through the Imams and Sheikhs to stop the wrong indoctrination and to get all of us on the same page so that we can work together as one while exposing the sponsors and supporters of these madmen. On the killing of innocent students who were massacred hours just after midnight, I will say it is cruel, uncivilised, unsophisticated, unfeeling and not the characteristic of human beings. I am short of words to describe these sect members. What are they trying to do or prove? Is it to show that they are still relevant? What point do they want to show by attacking innocent students who have done nothing to them? Is it to stop western education? These are people who have no respect for humanity and divinity. My heartfelt sympathy and condolences go to the parents and loved ones of these innocent children. While I will continue to appeal to our security agencies to work as a team because the result will be greater than the sum of their individual effect or capabilities, I will also ask them to work harder to fish out the Boko Haram sympathisers among them. This is a major problem that if not looked into will drastically reduce their operations.

When the state of emergency was proclaimed, you were one of those who endorsed it, but there are people who have consistently argued that dialogue option should be considered and that it is dialogue that can actually resolve this. How would you react to this?

First of all, I am one of those who don’t believe in that. I don’t believe you should dialogue with a terrorist. I believe you should dialogue with human beings. These are not human beings. I don’t believe you should dialogue with somebody who has a twisted ideology of life and humanity. You are wasting your time. But having said that, did we stop them? You have a dialogue committee, so, what have they dialogue so far? Who are they dialoguing with? What have they achieved with their dialogue? Did anybody stop them? They were given three months, the three months expired. The government gave them another two months. Now, I don’t know, it is expiring gradually now. So, who is it that they are dialoguing with? Because everyday they tell us that they’ve got an agreement, the next day, someone comes out and say, ‘which agreement? We don’t even know who you are’. So, did anybody stop them? We said you don’t dialogue with criminals. You should be more concerned with the victims. Government went around and did their own thing because of the pressure from this other people you are talking about now (advocates of dialogue). But they listen to them. Put a dialogue committee together.

But the question Nigerians should be asking today is what is the fruit of this dialogue so far? What have they achieved now? They should also tell Nigerians how much has been spent on this dialogue for which we have not seen anything - the dialogue and who they are dialoguing with. How much did government invest in this committee? They should tell the public how they spent the money too in this dialogue that they are doing. For me, I sit back and I don’t see.... Look, if there was any credible, genuine result that has come out of such dialogue, I will be so glad. Because, all we want is stop killing our people. If there was a special dialogue that has just happened that will stop everything, will I say so? But what has it achieved? Nothing. So, its boils down to what I have said. That these are not the people to dialogue with.

They don’t really genuinely want to dialogue with you. They don’t want to. They have an ideology and they have a goal. The ideology is to Islamize Nigeria. They’ve said it and said it again and again. But people come out everyday to try and turn it and change it and speak for this so called Boko Haram. But everytime they come out, they say their motive, there agenda is to Islamize, first, the North, then to Islamize Nigeria. They even told Jonathan to convert. They told this Mr. Jonathan to convert. So, they are killing Christians everywhere and those Muslims who are sympathetic to Christians who do not agree with their ideology. They said it. Because they believe those Muslims who don’t agree with their agenda are also infidels. That is the way they see them. So, they group them to be the same with Christians. So, they kill them as well, which is unfortunate. These are people who have a set goal. Look, let me tell you, when a man is doing something for economic reason, it is very easy to change his mind.

But when a man is doing something for religious reason, it is not very easy to change his mind. Because religion is life. Its goes to the spirit-man and to the, you want to say, ‘who are you?’ Religion is attached to that. That is why a man can wrap himself with bomb and blow himself up. Look, he is not blowing himself up because he is hungry. Its cost money to make the bomb. Its cost money to buy the car. So, if he was hungary, he can use that money to go and feed himself. But it is not about food. That is not to say that government should not look at the economy, the joblessness, these are issues everywhere that government must be concerned about. But my point is, even if you buy a car for every person in Nigeria, every person in the North, one, one car for everybody today and you add N1 million to everybody, that will not stop terrorism. That is my point. If you create big factories, and you give jobs to all the jobless youths, that will still not stop terrorism because terrorism, bottomline, it is an ideology to bring a system of government, and that is it. Period. Nothing else matters, as far as they are concerned. You see, when you are dealing with ideology, you are dealing with something very deep and very serious and dangerous. How do you explain Osama Bin Laden? Was he doing what he was doing because he was poor? The man came from one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia. Yes, he is dead now, but his terrorist organisation is still there.

In view of what you have just said, would you advocate that there should be a regulation of the propagation of beliefs? I mean, regulation of what the preacher say in all religions. Because if you say radicalization is the bottomline, people can only be radicalized by what they hear or read. Should we now say there should be a minimum standard set by the state with regards to what a preacher can or cannot say?

The state must never get involved in preaching. I will never support government getting involved. You know why? You may have a government today that is very tolerant, very balanced, but you may have a government tomorrow that would use such laws and stretch it. And before you know, my sermon on sunday, I will have to bring it for vetting before I preach. I will send it to Aso Rock first for Aso Rock to see my sermon and vet it, whether it is acceptable or not. If they accept it, then I should preach it. If it is not accepted, then it cannot be preached. And that is how such laws can be stretched.

The law may not say exactly that, but it can be stretched. That is what I am trying to tell you. You don’t want that at all. Now, so, what is the solution? The solution is very straight forward. Christianity has leaders, Islam has leaders. It now behoves the leaders, it is their responsibilities to regulate and to find out what their preachers are preaching. So, government should hold the leaders responsible. And when I say leaders. I am not just talking about people who just say they are leaders. I am talking about the preachers themselves. Those who actually stand behind the pulpit to preach. Government must find ways to interact with these people and be able to hold them responsible.

The leaders of these preachers. You see what I am saying. Like I am saying, in CAN, there are five blocks. And the five blocks represent every strand of Christianity in Nigeria today. So, what that means is that if any Christian preacher, for example, is preaching something that will make people carry guns and start shooting people. It has never happened and it will never happen because it is not just part of what we preach. It is not there. But, in case, there is anything moving in that direction, as the President of CAN, we identify such a person, then we identify the block that relates to that person and so we now say to the head of that block: ‘Look, your man, what is saying and what he is doing now is a problem. If you don’t deal with it, we will deal with you. 

We will hold you responsible.’ So, its becomes his responsibility to now know how to tackle that man. I guess the same thing should happen in other religions. Other religions, just like CAN, should make sure that all the different strands of their religion are part of an organisation whereby the leaders from these different groups of preachers can be held responsible for what is taught in their places of worship just as we also hold our people responsible. You see, when you do that and it is done properly, I can assure you that we could start correcting that. It has to start from where they are being radicalized, and they are being radicalized on the internet or in places of worship.

In the internet, government can look into that too to make sure that there are people who look into what is going on because a lot of people are radicalized by what they see on the internet. So, that is when they should be thinking of creating laws that would regulate certain things that are on the internet or whatever. So, they should look at that. But as far as the preaching is concerned, the leaders of the different groups should be held responsible for whatever is happening. Look at America, do you know this thing that just happened in Kenya, there are speculations that some of the attackers were Americans. Based on that, CNN started doing some little reports and they came out with the fact that in St Paul Minnesota, especially that place, apart from other places in America, that place has a lot of Somalian immigrants, they are many there. 

And they said a lot of them are recruited from that place. That was what CNN was saying yesterday. And they said the FBI now has been working with some of the leaders of the places of worship of the community to make sure that they are careful about what is being taught and to protect them from these people who come in to try and radicalize them and convince them to go to Somalia. So, you have to go to the root cause. Again, those young people are being taken out of St. Paul Minnesota not because they are hungry but because they are being radicalized. It is happening in universities, it is happening in a lot of places around the world.

That Nigerian boy that wanted to blow up a plan on Christmas day is not from a poor family. That boy did not attempt to do what he was going to do because he was poor. When he was brought to court, he said he was going to defend himself and he was even proud of what he did. Why was he proud of what he did? It was something he had been taught. He had been indoctrinated. He has been given an ideology that tells him that he is superior to all these people and that all these people are infidels and these people are not allowing his religion to thrive the way it should. These are things that he must have been taught and that was why he was not afraid to die.

A quick one. When there are attacks, say on churches or motor-parks and you react. There are people that believe that your reactions usually heat up the polity. Have you also thought about that? How do you feel? Do you agree or believe that your comments heat up the polity and can your reactions be done midly not to heat up the polity?

How could I beleive that? In the first place, I was not appointed, I was elected. When one is elected into a position, he is elected to do a job. And part of my very sacred duty is protect a group of people, over 80 million of them in this country. So, it is my responsibility to speak out on their behalf. Yes, I speak out on behalf of all Nigerians, but specifically, I must speak out on behalf of these people that are being slaughtered like animals. I must speak out on their behalf because if I can’t do that, then I should resign or somebody else should come in and do this job because somebody must speak for this people. You see, look, let’s be honest with ourselves. In the North, the northern part of this country, Boko Haram is just the latest problem. First of all, there had been many religious crises of different kinds in the past. Not one was created by Christians. Not one of them. And I wonder why nobody thinks that is insignificant. Not one.

The Christians are always at the receiving end. But more than crisis, there had always been problems, in my own opinion, more subtle than Boko Haram. For example, there is no church in the far North, in the last 30 years that has a C-of-O. No church. But any mosque anywhere in the South has a C-of-O. The Central mosque in Warri where I come from is almost in the centre of the town. My people gave them land right there and it has a C-of-O. But there is no church that has a C-of-O up there. If I am wrong, let them come out and tell me I am wrong. Now, In the same far North, there is an unwritten law that no land or property should be sold or given for a church or brothel. So, church and brothel are equated on the same level. They are put together on the same level. So, you discover that a number of churches have to use individuals to buy land or buy a building and turn it into a church. But anytime government likes, they can just say, ‘no way’.

This is what happens in the far North. Is that right? This is a country that has a constitution that gives freedom of worship, freedom of association, freedom of anything to everybody. I want to show you something if you don’t mind. Last week, CAN in Kwara State made public a situation that has been going on in Kwara State. Kwara State is a state that is almost 50-50, they may give you a different impression, but it is almost 50-50. This is the level of marginalisation of Christians in Kwara State. Go through the whole thing, you will see it (An advertorial by CAN, Kwara chapter highlighting the marginalisation of christians in appointment or election into key government offices). There was a time, Ahmadu Bello University, they did an interview for Vice Chancellor, the best was a Christian man, I think from Southern Kaduna, he was denied the position.

These are realities of things that are going on. Somebody says don’t say, ‘it for peace sake’. That is why it has been like that. Now, if I don’t say it, everybody would like me. They will clap for me. But peace must be built on equity, justice, and truth. Without equity, justice and truth, there is no real peace. What you have is what some people call graveyard peace. It is not real, it is not genuine, it’s fake. And that is what has been going on all these while. So many things have gone on here in the North. So, how do you expect me, a leader of Christians in Nigeria, to know all these things and be quiet. Let me show you another thing. I am sure you are aware because it was published. 

A letter from the Borno State government trying to demolish all the structures in a particular area and cleverly said, ‘for overriding public interest, now we want to build 1000 housing units’. Do you see how nice that is? But in the meantime, in that very palce, there are atleast 20 churches, some of them with schools. Some of them with camp grounds. All these are built structures. They even sent their people to come and inspect the place. So, it was all set. They were going to demolish it. I have that letter. They acknowledged the letter in that publication. The CAN leader there said they are not going to do it again. If they are not going to do it again, it was because of somebody that spoke out. Because I was elected to do a job. I am just trying my best to say to Nigerians that we can build this nation together.

Nigeria is a great place but we must put all our cards on the table. Look at the recent killings here (Apo killings). Because its people of other faith that were killed, they have come out now. They are saying let’s do this, let’s investigate. Are they not heating up the polity by doing that? But nobody is saying such a thing now. Why is it always when Christians are killed and I speak out that they say I am heating up the polity. Let me tell you a story. Eight years ago, there was one of these their usual crisis, religious crisis and a lot of Christians were killed and many of them were from the Igbo extraction and they took the corpses home and there was a reaction. So, they were almost killing some of these Hausa/Fulani Muslims in Onitsha. So, they crossed the bridge and ran into Asaba.I was in Warri, I was not even CAN President. I heard of it. I bought relief materials, chartered a vehicle, drove to Asaba.

They are still there, some of them are still there. They can bear me witness. I drove to Asaba, gave them relief materials, gave them money and then I apologised to them on behalf of Christians. I said we don’t like fighting and don’t kill people. If anybody tries to hurt you, it is probably out of grief. But please, I am very sorry for what has happened to you. I did all that. Naturally, papers won’t carry it because it is Pastor Ayo who is doing that. But the question I asked, ‘how many times have our very good friends who are Muslim leaders done that for Christians?’ Christians are slaughtered, churches are destroyed all over the place. How many times have they gone to them to sympathise? Not just coming out to condemn it. But what practical things have they done to show that they really care. It breaks our hearts when we look at some of these things.

That brings us to the issue of compensation. Several lives have been lost, building burnt and other properties destroyed. Have people been compensated? As a Christian leader, have you been approached to come up with the cost of destruction?

Now, you are touching on the real issue. And this is where we have been crying out. You are talking about criminals and killers and not about the victims - The widows and orphans that are left behind. There are some that I have had to personally rehabilitate. The Federal Government, as far as this issue is concerned, has failed. The state governments, they are double failure. Because they are the direct custodians of these people. Recently, the Federal Government allocated some N5 billion for victims of post election violence sometimes ago,which is the first time they did anything. Now, if you look at the people who are supposed to administer this money, they put the state governors in charge. Now, these victims themselves are not in that committee, they are not represented. How do you expect true, genuine justice in disbursing that money? I am getting calls everyday in CAN from our members. Fortunately for us, we have a list of our own that government also has and we have told our people, ‘be calm, just flow with this thing and look at it and see if they will compensate all the people that are in the list that we have’. If they don’t, then we will cry out again. So, that is just for post election violence.

We are not even talking yet about the Boko Haram proper. That is also Boko Haram o. But you call that post election violence which was started because some people said they will make this country ungovernable, they will do this, this must happen. That was how those things happened and nobody is holding them accountable for the violence, anyway. Nobody is held accountable. That to me is a shame. Now, Boko Haram insurgency is dying down gradually. I think this is now the proper time for the Federal Government to set up a fresh committee that will now look at the case of the victims of Boko Haram. That is a very serious issue that must be on the table on Mr. President at this time.

Has the CAN leadership communicated that to the government?

Yes, we have.

What is their response?

Well, I am using this opportunity again to restate what I had already communicated to them. So, we are waiting.

We have bodies that serve as umbrella for the two major religions in Nigeria. Do leaders of these bodies hold meetings on how to address these challenges and how to protect adherents of other faiths in their areas?

Well, we hold meetings. If it is meetings you are talking of.

Do you discuss these issues and how to resolve them?

You see, we hold meetings, we discuss many things. You see, I believe in what I call progressive dialogue. What does that mean? It means dialogue where you set goals - achieveable goals and you have timelines. You say these are the things we want to achieve. If you don’t do that, you will just be meeting and talking. I don’t think that what brings progress, unity and all that is just for us to meet and talk. There must be set goals and timelines to achieve those goals. We have an organisation called NIREC. I think it is a good organisation, I think it is a proper one, I think it is important. But I think we need to work more. I think we need to do more.

The focus had been on Boko Haram, but we now have another dangerous sect - the Ombatse, operating just close to Abuja here. We didn’t really know much about this group until some securitymen were killed. Up till now, no major arrest has been made. The state governor even said that the cult members were going to churches and mosque and picking up pastors and muslim leaders to compel them to take oath. He specifically noted a petition from the Christian body in the state.

Don’t you think we are allowing a dangerous sect to fester?

I will add another third one to it. But before I add another one. Let me say that the problem of impunity is a serious problem in Nigeria. Is this the first time? All these Boko Haram attacks on churches, how many people have been brought to book? How many have been arrested? So, impunity breeds impunity. So, we are graduating. May God help us as a nation. In my own opinion, what you are saying is impunity - nothing will happen. Because nothing happened to those ones, nothing is going to happen to us too (perpetrators of violence). And then, it is wrong because this is a country with laws.

This is a country with security agents. So, the right thing should be done. Anybody who is flouting the laws of the land should be arrested. It doesn’t matter who that person is. But I will want to add that have you considered the issue of Fulani herdsmen? That is another bunch of impunity, right now. And it is happening in every state of Nigeria except in the core northern states. You don’t have it in the Northwest generally and you don’t have it in the Northeast. The Fulani herdsmen are not killing, maiming and destroying in the Northwest and in the Northeast. They are not. It is happening in the North-central and it is happening in every state in the South. 

So, it is an issue that must be looked at very carefully and seriously and don’t tell me that you are going to take people’s land and give them as grazing land all over the country. No, because those land belong to people. You cannot do that. These people have use of their land. You cannot do that. There is modern husbandry going on around the world. Don’t they eat cow in London? Don’t they eat cow even in Malaysia? But do we see cow on the streets of Turkey? Do we seek cows on the street of America, New York? Don’t they eat cow? How is it that they eat cow? Don’t they drink milk? How is it that they drink milk? What is wrong with us? Why are we advocating to take people’s land everywhere? The proper thing to do is to modernise the breeding of cows. Take them back to where they came from, those states where they came from. All we need to do is open modern ranches. And fortunately, they have land there. The whole place is open.

Take those land, spend the money, bring the experts, do irrigation, train those people and explain to them that it is better for you people to stay in one place. Your children can now go to school. Start building schools for them in these huge ranches. Build a whole town for them. You don’t need to come to other man’s land to do it. In fact, it will create jobs. Just as petroleum products are carried with tankers from Warri to Sokoto and to Kano, the same way. There are special vehicles that can carry these cows down South. Carry milk down South. That is what they do in Europe, that is what they do in America. You see some of these vehicles they cross from Belgium into France. They carry meat, they carry milk. They carry all these things. But you don’t see any cow roaming the streets. This is the 21st century for God’s sake. We must modernize.

Some people believe that you have been so soft on President Jonathan and you have not been critical of his administration’s handling of issues of corruption and anti-people policies. As the leader of Christians in Nigeria, people believe that you should have been critical of such things. Is it because he is a South-southerner or because he is a Christian?

Sometimes when I here such a thing from a person like you, I am puzzled. Because if there is anybody that has been critical of the government when I need to be, I am one of them. Anyone who has been present in any service, for example when Mr. President is sitting down, there are issues that I bring up that are very important and that touch on some of the issues of the day. I think some people just want to turn a blind eye on some of the things that I say. They don’t want to.... I think it is intentional. They just want to turn away from those things.

I would have asked what areas do they want me to talk about. Or do they want me to just wake up and just abuse the man. I don’t think that is what I was elected to do as the President of Christians in this country. I have been talking. You have heard one or two things I said about the government and I am sure you are going to publish them. I have said what I said because there is a need to say those things. If there is need for it, I will say it. But the point is I am not one that criticizes people just for criticism sake. If there is a need for criticism, I criticize. If there is a need to commend, I surely will commend. I cannot speak for Jonathan because Jonathan stood for an election and he was elected as the President of Nigeria. Yes, he is a Christian, but he is the President of Nigeria. Whenever I need to cricize him, I will and I have done it many times. But I will not criticise him for criticism’s sake.

Do you have private meetings with him on these issues?

Whenever I have the opportunity. Some people think I sleep in Aso Rock. I don’t. If I need to see Mr. President, I book appointment like anybody else. I don’t go alone. I go with a group of Christian leaders. So, sometimes, it is puzzling to me how people come up with so much strange ideas.